“Even if the world seems bleak just now, we can prevail”

Ian Kershaw is one of the world’s leading contemporary historians. In 1974 he was one of the first foreign researchers to gain access to archive material from the Nazi era.

Interview by Ulrike Scheffer

Sir Ian, you were awarded a DAAD scholarship in 1974 to spend a few months conducting research in Germany. How did that come about?

At the time I was still a lecturer in medieval history. However, I became interested in Germany as a result of a language course I stumbled across at the Goethe-Institut in Manchester. In 1972 I had also done a crash course in German in a small town near Munich. The people there were really nice, which made me wonder how people like them could have been enthusiastic about the Nazis. I couldn’t get that out of my mind, so I applied to the DAAD for a research scholarship.

How does one end up learning German without any particular reason?

Well, I just got it into my head that I wanted to learn a language – and didn’t really care which one. I had spotted an advert for the Goethe-Institut at Piccadilly station in London and decided there and then to sign up for a course at the Goethe branch that had just opened in Manchester. It was a wonderful course because our teacher not only taught us German but also succeeded in getting us excited about Germany. She talked about the 1968 movement, about German art, literature and music, and also about politics and history. I found it all absolutely fascinating.

Dann war nur ein Zufall die Initialzündung für Ihre Karriere als Historiker und Kenner des Nationalsozialismus?

Certainly the DAAD scholarship played a major role.

The scholarship gave me the opportunity to conduct research in German archives and to make a name for myself with a topic from modern history. This enabled me to switch to modern history, which normally would be virtually impossible.

This research trip also brought it home to me just what a wealth of material about National Socialism there actually was in German archives. Hardly any of it had been processed at the time. I was especially interested in the social history of National Socialism. What did people think about the Nazis and why did they support them?

What happened next?

The DAAD scholarship opened many doors to me in Germany. After it I received a one-year research fellowship from the Alexander von Humboldt Foundation and was invited to take part in one of the first large-scale German research projects on National Socialism, the Bavaria Project run by the historian Martin Broszat at the Institute for Contemporary History in Munich. That formed the basis for my first important book: “The Hitler Myth: Image and Reality in the Third Reich”.

That was followed by many other books that played a seminal role in critical engagement with National Socialism – not least your two-volume biography of Hitler. Is there in fact anything still left for future generations of historians to research?

Without a doubt we did pioneer the systematic study of National Socialism. Many of the documents we analysed had never previously been in the hands of any other researcher. That was fascinating. The only problem was that in those days we would still make copies that we would have to lug around with us. My suitcase got heavier and heavier. And it is true that these days there are hardly any aspects of National Socialism that haven’t been researched yet. I would therefore recommend that young historians find themselves a different field of research – the evolution of modern populism, for instance.

That is certainly a fascinating topic. In Germany, populism tends for the most part to involve the political right. What do you think about the fact that a right-wing extremist party is winning elections again? Have we learnt nothing from history?

The Germans, and indeed Europeans, have definitely learnt lessons from history. We have rebuilt Europe together.

As far as the current situation in Germany is concerned, I see only few parallels with the rise of the Nazis. The social climate is different to that in the Weimar Republic, when there was a genuine sense of doom. The economic situation was dramatic and there was mass unemployment. Furthermore, democratic parties these days are very aware of the danger posed by right-wing parties. Their refusal to cooperate with such parties is also one of the lessons learnt from history. Democracy is robust. All the same, the developments are naturally unsettling – not only in Germany, but all over Europe, and not least in the US.

Social media play an important role in forming public opinion nowadays. Do you see any parallels with the propaganda of the Nazis, who also took advantage of modern mass media such as radio and film?

On the one hand, the internet is a wonderful invention that also benefits science and research. Rather than travelling around the world with their suitcases packed full of documents, researchers these days can do their research and keep in contact with colleagues online. Social media also do great damage, however. Bullying begins among young people and continues at the political level. I would even say that social media pose a greater threat to democracy than the Nazi propaganda. After all, the influence the Nazis had was limited. By contrast, populists and anti-democratic regimes can use social media to instantly send their messages all over the world. They attempt to influence elections and incite people in other countries to oppose their governments. That wasn’t possible in the same way in the past. In addition, nobody really has any control of social media. I think that’s extremely dangerous.

Can you offer any explanation as to how things could have gone so awry? After the fall of the Berlin Wall, the American political scientist Francis Fukuyama declared “the end of history”, his theory being that liberal democracy had proven itself to be the best form of government. Where has all this optimism gone?

The fall of the Wall was a fantastic turning point in recent history, yet not all of the expectations associated with it were in fact realised. The primary reason is that the end of the Cold War upset the balance of power between the two superpowers. The world became multipolar, which made it rather more unpredictable. Extremist ideologies were given a boost, with the result that the world found itself in a new confrontational situation following the 9/11 attacks. Since then, one crisis has followed the other: the 2008 financial crisis, the refugee crisis, Brexit, the coronavirus crisis. All of this was and is linked to the fact that people in Western democracies feel uncertain about the future and are afraid of losing what they have. This has been exacerbated by the war against Ukraine. Europe’s security is once again at stake, we are experiencing an energy crisis and massive price rises. This is also conducive to a rise in populism.

Do you see any way out of this vicious cycle?

I believe there will be renewed scope for optimism if the wars in Ukraine and Gaza can be brought to an end. If so, we will also be able to overcome future crises – above all the climate crisis. Even if the world seems bleak just now, we can prevail. Academic exchange and cooperation will play an important role in this, which is why I’m so happy that there are institutions like the DAAD. Hopefully it will continue to help many more generations of young researchers get started on their career paths.